Comments on: what is the rail advantage in CO2 emissions over an equivalent air flight? http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/ Sun, 10 Jan 2010 10:18:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: patrick http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/comment-page-1/#comment-16189 patrick Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:02:14 +0000 http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/#comment-16189 @Patsy Well I am using their numbers -- but from my (limited) pilot training I can say with some certainty that the additional CO2/km (fuel) burned could come from: <ol><li>Takeoff/Landing fuel -- so for short-distance flights the landing/takeoff fuel is a greater percentage of total fuel consumption.</li> <li>Airport congestion -- if the airplane is forced to spend more time in the air waiting to land or taxiing for takeoff ("We are 23rd in line for takeoff") that would also impact fuel consumption.</li> </ol> @Patsy

Well I am using their numbers — but from my (limited) pilot training I can say with some certainty that the additional CO2/km (fuel) burned could come from:

  1. Takeoff/Landing fuel — so for short-distance flights the landing/takeoff fuel is a greater percentage of total fuel consumption.
  2. Airport congestion — if the airplane is forced to spend more time in the air waiting to land or taxiing for takeoff (“We are 23rd in line for takeoff”) that would also impact fuel consumption.
]]> By: Patsy http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/comment-page-1/#comment-16187 Patsy Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:54:45 +0000 http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/#comment-16187 Airplane: 0.73 CO2kg/mile. Airplane: 0.57 CO2kg/mile Sorry, I meant these numbers Why the difference? Airplane: 0.73 CO2kg/mile.

Airplane: 0.57 CO2kg/mile

Sorry, I meant these numbers

Why the difference?

]]> By: Patsy http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/comment-page-1/#comment-16186 Patsy Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:53:32 +0000 http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/#comment-16186 Airplane: 0.57 CO2kg/mile. Airplane: 0.57 CO2kg/mile Why the difference Airplane: 0.57 CO2kg/mile.
Airplane: 0.57 CO2kg/mile

Why the difference

]]> By: patrick http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/comment-page-1/#comment-702 patrick Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:09:25 +0000 http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/#comment-702 HSR trains may use more energy than trains running at 79-mph. However, consider what the passengers would have been taking if they weren't taking a HSR train: a highly polluting airplane. So even if the train is running half full I would suspect that the energy/CO2 efficiency is still there. Eurostar made a point of looking at the source of the electricity that they were using. France has a large number of nuclear power plants. This helps the Eurostar's numbers. HSR trains may use more energy than trains running at 79-mph. However, consider what the passengers would have been taking if they weren’t taking a HSR train: a highly polluting airplane. So even if the train is running half full I would suspect that the energy/CO2 efficiency is still there.

Eurostar made a point of looking at the source of the electricity that they were using. France has a large number of nuclear power plants. This helps the Eurostar’s numbers.

]]> By: Christopher Parker http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/comment-page-1/#comment-627 Christopher Parker Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:48:42 +0000 http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2006/10/10/what-is-the-rail-advantage-in-co2-emissions-over-an-equivalent-air-flight/#comment-627 1. High Speed rail, because of much higher speeds, uses a lot more Co2 and energy than train travel at ordinary speeds -- so ordinary train travel does even better when compared to airlines. BUT electric trains are much more energy efficient than diesel (I can't remember how much for sure, but twice as much sticks in my head.) It is currently more energy efficient to create power in a power plant than via a distributed network of diesel engines. 2. Measurement of pollution emitted by a train is heavily dependent on the kind of locomotive used. Not only the electric vs. diesel distinction, but the kind of diesel engine used makes a difference because recent engines, conforming to new EPA standards are much more efficient than older engines still in service. Statistics of pollution created by trains are sometimes distorted because they measure average pollution created by the total fleet that is still largely composed of older standard locomotives, while new services will be much more efficient than the industry average because they will use new locomotives. 3. The other key is load factors. Planes these days run full and trains usually don't. If you measure pollution per passenger vs pollution per seat mile, the results will come out different. Work on yield management systems and the energy burned for travel can be split among more travelers. You would also get quite a different result if you measured based on per square foot available to a passenger . . . since air passengers are squeezed like sardines, that will make the numbers look better. 1. High Speed rail, because of much higher speeds, uses a lot more Co2 and energy than train travel at ordinary speeds — so ordinary train travel does even better when compared to airlines.

BUT electric trains are much more energy efficient than diesel (I can’t remember how much for sure, but twice as much sticks in my head.) It is currently more energy efficient to create power in a power plant than via a distributed network of diesel engines.

2. Measurement of pollution emitted by a train is heavily dependent on the kind of locomotive used. Not only the electric vs. diesel distinction, but the kind of diesel engine used makes a difference because recent engines, conforming to new EPA standards are much more efficient than older engines still in service. Statistics of pollution created by trains are sometimes distorted because they measure average pollution created by the total fleet that is still largely composed of older standard locomotives, while new services will be much more efficient than the industry average because they will use new locomotives.

3. The other key is load factors. Planes these days run full and trains usually don’t. If you measure pollution per passenger vs pollution per seat mile, the results will come out different. Work on yield management systems and the energy burned for travel can be split among more travelers. You would also get quite a different result if you measured based on per square foot available to a passenger . . . since air passengers are squeezed like sardines, that will make the numbers look better.

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